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Will Sasuke fight Orochimaru?

Discussion in 'Naruto Theories' started by Kabuki-bayo, Jun 13, 2005.

  1. Kabuki-bayo Kabuki: OG Chambara!

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    With the thousands and thousands of threads on this forum I'm sure somebody's mentioned these theories so let's be clear that my goal isn't to get credit or prestige for posting this. My hope is that we can discuss and define these very possible plot turnings, and more importantly we can put forth and analyze any exsisting evidence that make support or debunk the theory that I'm presenting. With that being said...

    CONTROL YOUR UCHIHA/UZUMAKI FANATICISM!!!

    On to the thread...

    Spoiler: CLICK HERE IF YOU'RE A MANGA READER
    Will Sasuke fight Orochimaru? Well I think so, and I think he'll have to do it before he fights Itachi. Here's why...

    "Itachi > Orochimaru"

    -This has been proven. He wanted Itachi's sharingan and he couldn't take it so he left Akatsuki.

    "Orochimaru > Sasuke"

    -Once again this one is obvious, in fact it's so obvious that it doesn't deserve or need any evidence.

    There are only two ways that Sasuke can become strong enough to defeat Itachi: the first is to let Orochimaru take over his body and hope that he makes good on his promise (he doesn't have a good tract record in this department), the second is to train, copy Oro's thousands of jutsus, and exceed him in terms of power.

    Now there's a few reasons why the first path towards defeating Itachi probably won't happen, but there's one that's so obvious that it makes the others insignificant: Sasuke has problems with authority. Isn't that why he left Konoha? Because their goals and their ideals were hampering his? I don't think his relationship with Orochimaru is any different then his relationship with other authority figures, and I don't think he'll just lay there in his jockeys asking Orochimaru to take him. This tension between these two obsessed individuals was not only foreshadowed by, but made up the bulk of the ONLY exchange that we've seen between Sasuke and the Village of Sound, and I'm under the opinion that this one scene will resonate though Part 2 and the rest of the series.

    With this path towards defeating Itachi being an unlikely one (letting Oro take his body), the only other way that Sasuke can obtain vengeance is by surpassing Orochimaru and moving on to Itachi. While I'm sure that Kabuto will be forced to fight him first, Orochimaru will ultimately have to step in and settle the score with Sasuke. Besides, before the series is over we'll need to see at least one changing of the Sannin guard... Not sure how soon this is gonna happen, but I think based on the evidence above it's obvious that's it's going to happen at some point.

    What happens next is anyone's guess... Orochimaru could defeat Sasuke, steal his body and once again declare war on Konoha. This would be great because at some point in the future Naruto, or more likely Sakura could tear Oro's soul from Sasuke thereby saving him and defeating Orochimaru at the same time. The other (and more likely) outcome, is that Sasuke defeats Orochimaru and word spreads to Konoha, Akatsuki and most importantly Itachi. This would redeem Sasuke in the eyes of the Leaves (especially Naruto), and make up for his treasonous act of escaping Konoha. As it stands now, Sasuke is a criminal that's not welcome back in Konoha, so for a happy ending to take place he'll need to redeem himself, and I can't think of a better way than taking out one of the most powerful members of Akatsuki while still leaving an oppurtunity for Naruto to come in and "save" him. I suppose Itachi COULD defeat Sasuke leaving Naruto to step in and save him, but I think Naruto's increasing anger about being treated like a suitcase is resulting in his newest arch-enemy being The Leader of Akatsuki, and THIS will be who Naruto saves him from.

    All in all, this scenario of first defeating Orochimaru and then defeating Itachi would provide a happy ending to the Sasuke sub-plot and still leave sufficient room for Naruto to save the day and the world from the evil clutches of Akatsuki. All of this aside though, we WILL see a fight between Sasuke and Orochimaru, and it will be very VERY sweet.

    In very traditional scientific fashion, I'll now submit my theories to my fellow scientists for scrutiny and testing. Please don't hold back, and please remember that my only "theory" is that Sasuke will HAVE to fight Orochimaru BEFORE he fights Itachi. How that all happens, what happens, and what happens after it is anybody's guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2005
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  2. Rangamaru Obito Killed The Uchiha Clan

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    I doubt it. I feel that Oro is as far above susuke as Jiraiya is above Naruto--even after the time skip. I think fighting him would be suicide. I think the only way for him to stand a chance is for him to get Ms, and that will only happen if he kills his best friend naruto. At best, he'll probably escape.
     
  3. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    Sasuke will most likely fight Oro, i mean that's one of the main reasons why Kishimoto made him go to Oro, to fulfill the legend that ties him with Oro and Itachi.
     
  4. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    If you go by mythology then Sasuke will end up killing Orochimaru with his own Kusanagi and Susanoo. So yeah Sasuke will fight Orochimaru. But however.....Sasuke will probably get his ass whooped the first time and then kill him the next.
     
  5. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    Actually, Susanowo gains kusanagi after he killed Yamaya no Orochi (Oro)

    Since i'm pretty sure that Oro is still stronger than him, Sasuke will poison him and then kill him.

    In the mythology, Susanowo gets drunk the 8 headed moster before he kills it.

    So, Sasuke really has only one chance to kill Oro, not two, since that would put him at risk and the element of surprise would be gone.
     
  6. Blue Well-Known Member Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    I can't see Sasuke ever surpassing Orochimaru, or anyone ever surpassing the Sannin. The Sannin are made out to be the end-all of power development; they are above everyone else, and always will be.

    The only person(s) capable of killing Orochimaru is Tsunade and/or Jiraiya. The sannin will die of old age before the genin surpass them. The sannin are all geniuses, just as much as Sasuke or anyone, and have 50 years of experience. In addition, Orochimaru is immortal, and Tsunade will keep her full strength up to the moment she dies. It's insane to assume the genin will surpass them in anything less then twenty or more years.
     
  7. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    I dont think that Sasuke will poison Orochimaru. Orochimaru is a snake like character so unless Sasuke comes up with something better then I doubt he would be poisoned easily.

    Kiri no Kunoichi bring up a good point. I wonder if the Neo Sannin will have a hug Itachi like power jump. Gaining like 20+ years of strength in a few years.
     
  8. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    KNK, i'm pretty sure that you have seen all images of Team 7 as the next Sanni. For god's sake, we have even seen them with their summon. :p

    The Sannin are there to act as a measuring stick for the future generation.

    Hell, Kishimoto used twice or three times Kakashi as a measuring stick for Kabuto.




    I know what you mean, it take a sannin to kill a sannin, however this is not the case.

    Look at Itachi (suddenly evades a bunch of sharp flying objects thrown at me)


    Tsunade can't kill Oro, if Oro have his jutsu, which he does.


    I don't mean any disrespect for any female, i'm just telling you that Tsunade can't kill Oro, since Oro is more powerful than her.


    He was after all, the first candidate for the Yondaime Hokage title and is the strongest Sannin.


    Jiraiya might be more of a challange, but Oro is still stronger than him.


    In my opinion, in order for a sannin to have a big chance of killing Oro, they will need to combined their strength.


    The sannin might kill each other off at the end or simply kill by the new generation.


    Actually, the only have that have been described as a genius was only Oro. Go read what Sandiame had to say about Oro.


    I know its hard to believe but by the way things are going, it might happen soon.



    I said he might poision him, instead of getting him drunk since Oro doesn't seem that kind of guy that you see drunk in any bar, unlike Jiraiya.




    Well, weasel eat snakes.
     
  9. sik4rilz Official Lol'er of the Kunai

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    he might..his main goal is too kill itachi..but he might kill oro to (hem hem)'test his strength'..hmmmmm?
     
  10. GaiusMaecinas New Member

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    I've heard the connection between Sasuke and the mythical Susanowo mentioned before, and I know very little of the Japanese mythology underlying Naruto, but my question is why is Sasuke always mentioned as the manga's version of Susanowo? Couldn't Jiraya, or Naruto, or any other character for that matter fulfil the role of Susanowo by slaying Orochi(maru) and taking the Kusanagi sword? Why does everyone assume that Sasuke has to fill this role?
     
  11. Guillermo I wear my sunglasses at night

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    I see the climactic battle to end Orochimaru's reign of terror panning out in one of two scenarios. The first one is a quasi team 7 versus team Oro. it's Kakashi (or Sakura, I haven't decided yet) vs. Kabuto, Oro vs Jiraya, and Naruto vs. Sucksuke. The second scenario would be sort of a Sannin battle (Tsunade and Jiraya vs Orochimaru) and a neo-sannin battle (Sakura and Naruto vs Sucksuke), with Kakashi fighting Kabuto. . . again. Either way, it's Jiraya that does the killing, not Assuke. Everybody gets one really meaningfull killing in the series, he's got Itachi. Plus I really want to see the look on Oro's face when he gets pwned by Jiraya.

    Oro: Jiraya, you are so below my level, I don't even have to try hard to kill you. I think I can do it while reading one of your crappy books. *pulls out come come violence*

    Jiraya: I can take your insults about my ninja skills, but never EVER insult my adult books! 1000 YEARS OF PAIN/ RASENGAN COMBO!
     
  12. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    I guess you haven't paid attention to the legend.


    Here, let me do you a favor.

    When Izanagi came back from his trip from hell, he washed his face and from his eyes fell amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and from his nose fell Susanowo.

    Now, those two names (ama and tsu) are jutsus that only belong to the Uchiha clan.

    Susanowo was expelled from heaven and lost everyone dear to him.

    Now, take Sasuke.

    Itachi killed The Uchiha clan, which is Sasuke's "heaven", his home.

    While being on earth, he found a cursed family that have lost 7 of their 8 daughthers they had to Yamata no Orochi.

    Yamata no Orochi, is obviously Oro.

    Notice that Oro put cursed seal in people that he like and posses bodies that he likes.

    Susanowo decided to help this family, and concieved a plan in how to save the last daughther in exchange if they allow him to marry her.

    Susanowo make the family prepare a banquet for Yamata no Orochi and gets him drunk.

    Then later the family tricked the monster to put his 8 heads in 8 different holes, where Susanowo was able to cut off their heads.

    After he killed the moster, he decided to open his stomach where he found Kusanagi.n

    Oro have been shown to hide Kusanagi in his stomach.

    Sasonowo then decides to take this sword to Amaterasu in order to be forgiven which he was.

    Now, Sasuke doesn't want to give this sword to Amaterasu (Itachi) in order for him to be forgiven, but for Itachi to acknowledge him as his equal, where their final fight will occur.


    This is why Susanowo is not Jiraiya or Naruto but Sasuke.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2005
  13. CyberPunk 3D Blaster Savage

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    There's more to the story then Susanowo just killing the snake beast and taking the sword. I'm gonna try and paraphrase what I've read.

    Izanagi, the god of light and heaven, had a wife who died during child birth. Izanagi went into the underworld to retrieve her, but she would not return, and they parted forever. Izanagi, in a cleaning rites ritual, bathed in a river and bore the sun goddess, Amaterasu, in his left eye and the moon god, Tsukiyumi, in his right. From his nose, the god of storm and seas, Susanowo was born.

    Susanowo was very impetuous and always full of anger and hatred which spawned from a rivalry he had with his sibling, Amaterasu. It was this rivalry that got him banished from heaven. While wandering the earth, if I remember correctly, he came across a farmer, or farming village, that was being terrorized by an 8 headed snake beast. Susanowo decided to help and destroyed the 8 headed snake beast by first intoxicating it with 8 tubs of wine. From the snake's belly fell the sword of Kusanagi. Susanowo took the sword and gave it to his sibling, Amaterasu, as sort of a peace offering. Susanowo, still in exile, then went to live with his mother in the underworld.

    It's open to interpretation of course, but many people see certain similarities with Sasuke. Izanagi gave birth to Amaterasu and Tsukiyumi by cleansing himself in a river(I forget the name). Itachi did something similar. He killed his best friend by drowning him in the Nakano river, and in turn, received the Mangekyou Sharingan which houses both the Amaterasu and Tsukiyumi techniques. Itachi, with this and the massacre, also created the anger and hatred within Sasuke. Yada yada yada, Sasuke and his "sibling", Naruto, have their rivalry which ultimately forces Sasuke out of "heaven", which could be represented as Konoha. Sasuke's source of power/training(Orochimaru) coincidentally has an affinity with snakes. This is why people feel he'll be the undoing of Orochimaru and maybe use the sword of Kusanagi as an offering back into Konoha.

    Another interesting note is that Susanowo was known as the god of storm/lightning, and Sasuke's Chidori, visually, is remarkably similar to lightning. Maybe in the future he'll be the one to unleash the "Susanowo" technique to complete the trifecta of gods, but who knows.
     
  14. John Smith New Member

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    so who is the 8th daughter?
     
  15. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    Don't know, it might be Sasuke's future wife, or his new grilfriend from the Sound.
     
  16. Kyuubi Naruto Hounds of Justice

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    Atleast that clears up the fact that LotU doesnt believe in SasukexSakura. I dont either :laugh.

    The only girl I see dating Sasuke is a Hinata type girl from the Sound that is very strong..
     
  17. Kahve Luck o' the Irish

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    He'll probably TRY to fight him ... but Naruto will have to finish it ... as always.
     
  18. Divine Avenger Alpha Omega

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    I wanna know

    Hey can u guys show me that hinata-type girl's from the sound village picture
    i have not seen her at all & as a great sasuke fan i gotta know and by the wat i think that sasuke will make use of orochimaru's power to either get rid of itachi or at least weaken him then he goes in for the kill
     
  19. UrKa i want a red kamel....

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    think about this.... if oro dies, then probabbly the CS will dissapear, so, in order to sasuke to become more powerful, he can't loose is CS, altough i want them to fight and oro to die(actually both to die, but ok.. someone has to survive..) i think that sasuke will fight oro, but he won't kill him...altough he can't let anyone kill oro, in order to keep his CS... lvl 3???
     
  20. Divine Avenger Alpha Omega

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    ...*confused*...why does sasuke lose his cs if orochimaru die???
     
  21. UrKa i want a red kamel....

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    don't know, i think that beacause is something oro gives u, maybe if he dies the CS dissapears....i could be wrong, its just a tought....
     
  22. Rangamaru Obito Killed The Uchiha Clan

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    You guys are probably gonna stone me, but this story makes me think he is going to kill oro and then make peace with Itachi...Maybe it's just me :huh .
     
  23. Last of the Uchihas Get your own girls, Jonas!

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    No, read my post.

    Sasuke will not give Itachi the sword to make peace.

    The sword would be evidence that Sasuke killed Orochimaru, which will make Itachi finally acknowledge him as his equal.
     
  24. Kabuki-bayo Kabuki: OG Chambara!

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    First off, thanks for replying and helping me with this theory. While it may be the result of wishful thinking (I love seeing Orochimaru fight [I think I've watched his fight with the Third twenty times now]), I'll continue to stand by the logic of my opening post. I'd like to respond to a few things that people said though, and then I'll move on to some follow-up questions...

    Itachi is more powerful then Orochimaru, this has been stated in both the manga and the anime. Itachi wouldn't GIVE him the sharingan, and Oro couldn't TAKE it, therefore Itachi is more powerful then Orochimaru. So... if it's suicide for Sasuke to do battle with Orochimaru, then it's CERTAIN DEATH if he battles Itachi. Poisoning Oro would be an interesting twist, but if that's how he breaks free from the clutches of Orochimaru then there's no way that he'll be powerful enough to defeat his brother.

    I'm humbled by both your presence, and concurrence. Legends and myths aside though (pun intended)... he's GOT to be more powerful then Orochimaru if he even thinks about standing a chance against Itachi.

    I'd like to believe this also, but Itachi would hand Orchimaru his ass on a platter. Orochimaru didn't leave Akatsuki because Itachi wouldn't GIVE him his sharingan, he left because he couldn't TAKE it. It's just not in Orochimaru's character to take no for an answer unless the person can kick his ass. Tsunade said "no" to Orochimaru's request for medical aid and so they did battle, he fled because he would have gotten served. Earlier in the series the Third said, "No bitch, you're NOT destroying Konoha," and then they did battle. Orochimaru will not just take "no" for an answer.

    Also, we're talking about the future Sannin here. In terms of raw power and talent all three were far above the level of genin before the test even began (even Sakura), they simply lacked the maturity and experience to qualify as being squad leaders. I'm actually convinced that Naruto will never go up another rank anywhere in the series just to quiet all you rank sticklers. Sorry if that sounded like flaming, but the whole point of the Chunin Exam Arc was to show that while Naruto lacked a few basic ninja skills and acutely lacked maturity, he was still skilled and mature enough to SAVE THE ENTIRE VILLAGE! Could Shikamaru have stopped the the One-Tail? I don't think so... Even though he was of higher rank than Naruto, he would be the first to admit that he'd have been squashed. The whole rank thing (even Naruto's goal of being Hokage) is in the series to simply show that it doesn't REALLY matter, what matters are the choices that we make and the things that we protect.

    If I said that Sasuke was going to KILL Orchimaru I'm sorry. I meant to say that they will do battle and that Sasuke will HAVE to win if he's going to break off his relationship with Orochimaru. Sasuke didn't kill Naruto but he still "won" that battle didn't he? He also HAS to surpass Orochimaru if he's going to be strong enough to kill Itachi, he doesn't have a choice in this department.

    Like I posted above...

    If Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, and Sasuke wants to kill Itachi, won't he HAVE to surpass Orochimaru BEFORE he kills Itachi? If not, please state why.

    Also, doesn't Sasuke's future as a container for Orochimaru represent an end to his search for vengeance? If not, please state why.

    Thanks again for helping me with this theory guys. I especially appreciate all of you people that disagreed with me. Please present as much evidence as possible for why they won't fight. I'd love to rule this fight out just so I could see Jiraiya serve him something nasty, but I think Sasuke will HAVE to put him in his place first.
     
  25. Rangamaru Obito Killed The Uchiha Clan

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    Geez, I was just telling you what I got out of the story. I not saying "This is gonna happen," or anything like that. Also, I've read yout post :smile-big, everything is open to different interpretation: like an earlier poster said ,Itachi could be amaterasu, or he could be Inazagi which would both make sense. He drowns his friend in a river--baths in a river-- and gets those two techniques as a trophy.


    I'm not debating the issue of Itachi being stronger than Oro. I never even said anything about it :huh . Fighting him straight on just wouldn't be smart. To say that he'd surpass Oro in only two years, when it has taken several years for Oro to surpass the third just wouldn't be likely--even if he is a genius. I feel that making Susuke that strong so early would destroy the balance of the series; It would make him godlike, and that would damage his character. a part of what makes susuke, susuke is his search for power, and the ways through which he will obtain it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2005
  26. Kabuki-bayo Kabuki: OG Chambara!

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    I restated their power dynamic because it seemed like you failed to recognize that if Itachi is more powerful than Orochimaru, then Oro will HAVE to be a milestone, or stepping-stone for Sasuke on his way to Itachi. Sorry if that response seemed condescending, I should have made this "milestone" concept a little more literal. And just to be clear on something else, the only thing that I'm proposing in my theory is that the WILL do battle, and that they'll do battle BEFORE he does battle with Itachi. I tried to be ambigious and non-commited to the time frame amd conditions of this battle, so I apologize if it came across as me saying that Sasuke is gonna fight Oro in the next couple chapters... Like you, I just don't see that as being realistic.

    Also, I agree that the character of Sasuke still has a lot of developing to do before he's ready for a fight of this magnitude, but there's some pretty substantial handicapping that I'll point out in a second... I'll also admit that defeating Orochimaru would mess up the balance of the series' major characters, and throw into question just how great these three ninja from team 7 are. Another good point that you made was about how long it took Oro to surpass HIS teacher. I'm a little confused on this one though because The Fourth surpassed (or became "on par" with) Jiraiya in a relatively short period of time, right? And while it may make him seem God-like, I just don't see a non-violent resolution to Oro and Sasuke's Itachi dilema. To put this another way that, why would Orochimaru let Sasuke fight Itachi if there's a STRONG possibility that he'd lose to him? A dead container isn't a container... Right?

    In regards to the conditions of their possible fight, Oro's arms are still bound by The Third's curse and this isn't his only handicap! Do you remember how weak Orochimaru gets when he's nearing the end of his current container's lifespan? If Sasuke could get Kabuto out of the picture for just a bit, I think he could take Orochimaru in this condition, and a "win" under these less then ideal conditions wouldn't mess up the balance TOO much. Maybe it would though...

    Besides wanting and hoping for a kickass villian vs. villian fight, I think there's also a narrative purpose to the author having Sasuke fight and break free from Orochimaru... Kishimoto-sama is going prove how much Naruto and Sakura have grown in the next few chapters of the manga, and I'm thinking that he'll HAVE to do the same for Sasuke BEFORE he fights Itachi.

    All of these are just theories and predictions though, maybe there WILL be another way for Sasuke to prove his growth besides fighting Orochimaru, and maybe Orochimaru WILL hold up his end of the bargain, helping Sasuke gain enough power to defeat Itachi. All in all, great post Guillermo and thanks for the feedback!
     
  27. Rangamaru Obito Killed The Uchiha Clan

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    I see what you are saying, but I doubt any of them have grown that much. Kishi is tormenting us, he creates circumstances where the characters strengths are impossible to gauge: the crippled sannin fight. I think in the next few chapters we will see Sakura and Naruto fighting a one armed Diendara substantially weakened by Garaa. This will only confuse things more--just how strong is a one armed genius that depends upon his hands for artistic jutsu?
     
  28. Kabuki-bayo Kabuki: OG Chambara!

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    Nicely worded, and very true. He has a lot of different techniques for creating and cultivating ambiguity (like the early first images of Akatsuki being barely visable), and while I noticed that he does this a lot I hadn't really connected it to the mysteriousness that surrounds many of the antagonists in his story.

    I started a "Will Oro let Sasuke fight Itachi?" poll/thread [thread=39488]and there's some interesting posts in here[/thread], you should check it out.
     
  29. Kabuki-bayo Kabuki: OG Chambara!

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    For those of you who've read the spoiler for 343:
    Booya!
    Damn I'm good...
     
  30. Okage Banned

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    Dude this thread is anchient:nuts
     
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