Discussion in 'Philosophical Forum' started by Zhongda, Feb 9, 2005.
ill agree with you slightly i believe that war was in eveitable but i believe it could of ended much sooner with fewer casualties. Keep in mind america had a small army after the deactivation of 90% of the army after ww1. I still think he had enough influence in his "empire" to of started some kinda of war and ethnic cleansing but i still thinkt hat war was bound to happen but it could of much less tragic
Let's not forget that an allied sniper had Hitler in his sights furing World War 1 but didn't want to shoot an injured man, thinking it dishonorable.
I think that this war could not be avoided! I had an opportunity to meet with people who lived on occupied territory during the war. They said that german solders, people sincerely belief in Hitler ideas. Hitler was too powerfull leader.
There were more then 12 attempts to kill Hitler - unsuccessful. It was miracle (it's not a very good word if to spek about Hitler)! His destiny was to comit suicide in 1945.
Even if Hitler was killed, one of his junior generals or party leaders would take his place. And it is well acknowledge that Hitler was very focused on ideology and pretty crazy. What if someone that had been more focused on world domination and less on extermination and other, relatively, wasteful ventures, had been put into power. i certainly would not have liked to see Heinrich Himmler take power...that man was as scary, if not more so, than Hitler himself.
^Good point. (Again)
Acually if not The French and The Brittains had let Hittler take over Tjeckoslovakia, then Tjeckoslovakia had fought NaziGermany. TS had an army strong, the could have made Hitlers army weakend by half it?s strength or even beat him. They didn?t defend them self beacuse France and Great Britain ordered them to surrender to Germany because they didn?t want anymore war.
Actually, I think that a better question might be "Would the Allies have won the war if Hitler hadn't betrayed Stalin?" Remember, the USSR was more or less on Germany's side before Hitler invaded them. If Hitler had fortified himself against the coming U.S. invasion, Normandy would've been a disaster. Either we never would've taken the beachhead, or we'd've been driven back into the sea by an armored counterassault. If that would've happened, the jet-powered Messerschmitt(sp?) fighters would've hit full productions, and those things flew circles around American Spitfires.
And let's not forget that Hitler was working on the A-bomb too. With the ballistic missile technology that they'd already developed (the V2), just think of what would've happened if the Nazis had finished their research. ::Shudder::
Of course war couldve been avoided, but we were'nt the politicians of that time so we dont have the right to criticise them.
well the V2 was very inaccurate and they where way far from the a-bomb. They really didn't have a clue how to make one at the end of WW2. the thing is that the punishments that germany recieved after WW1 ruined germany and that created a strong resentment against the french and british among others. this type of enviroment is a breading group for nationlism and of course that brings out the crazys who take over. hitler was a very charismatic leader and even though crazy as all hell he could whip up a crowd like no body. Could the war been prevented or at least shortened sure but that is a kind of 20/20 hindesight. people were very afraid of another great war and tended to think more about defence then offence. I don't even want to bring up that defensive line in france memories of the great war was on everyones mind and I think everyone assumed talks and politics would have stopped the war but by the time it became obvious the ball was already in motion.
That's NOT true. When America started the Manhattan project, the nazis were WAY out in front of us in terms of atomic research. However, the British were able to figure this out, and very shrewdly determined the weak link on the German atomic supply chain- Deutrium (Heavy water, for the un-sciency). Germany didn't have the production capacity to make it firsthand. They had to make it in Denmark or somewhere else north of Germany (forgive me, it's been a while). One shipment got through. The Brits bombed the facilities immediately after, and bombed them again when they were rebuilt. Without deutrium, the Germans couldn't run the little nuclear reactor that they needed to run in order to get the proper grade of uranium that their weapons design necessitated. They even got so desperate a few months before Berlin fell as to design a reactor that would only work for about two minutes, but would convert the uranium properly. It was an open-air facility, and would have killed all of the scientists there minutes after it was deactivated. Fortunately, the Battle of the Bulge went poorly for the Germans, and there just wasn't enough time for the facility to be brought online.
Those same scientists were brought to America, and provided final consulting for the American nuclear project. And the rest, as they say, is history.
I dont know where you read that but what I have read is that they brought over those same scientists and showed them how far they had gotten and it became apparent that the germans where way behind. they might have help consulted but it was after they where brought up to speed with what we had.
I believe the Germans were behind in atomic research, or at least they were not as far ahead as they could have been, for a simple reason: they Scoffed at Einstein's theories, just because he was a jew. The E=mc^2 equation (meaning that matter can be converted into energy, lots and lots of it) was central to the production of the atomic bomb. Einstein's theories were strange to begin with. He left Germany for the US to avoid persecution of jews. The Nazi government then had its most prominant scientists write dozens of papers to demonstrate in what way Einstein's theories were nonsense (to which Einstein had replied: "Why so many people against me? If I am wrong, one would suffice". ) Just because of that, their researches on atomic bombs were probably not as far ahead as it could have been.
I'm actually wondering what the situation would have been if Nazi government were Not anti-Jew. It'd be able to fully exploit Einstein and other scientists' works. Then again Hitler used anti-jew propaganda as a means to concentrate hate and blame failure on other people, so without it the Nazi regime would have been different as well.
Bah, too many ifs...
Ummm... Einstein had nothing to do with the Manhattan project. The famous letter that he sent to President Roosevelt had been sent several times by a consortium of lesser known scientists, and ignored. Those scientists just asked Einstein to put his name to it so they could get the American government to sit up and take notice.
^ Oh I know that. What I mean is that since Germans dismissed Einstein's theories as "stupid", it would have taken them a while to turn around and started seriously considering them (in the meantime they'd be doing their best ignoring them. Otherwise some people would laugh at them, see? And pride Is something that governments value highly, especially dictatorial ones).
There are just too many "what ifs" in history to consider. Certainly, if Hitler tripped over a stone and broke his neck falling down any time before 1945, history would have been drastically amended.
It might not have been for the better, especially if the Nazi Party had taken power in Germany already. Simply because Hitler also suppressed some of his brightest working under him with irrational decisions and policies that eventually led to his downfall.
As far as I know, the Nazi Germany did not research for the A-bomb, rather they went for the V2 instead, because apparently Heisenberg, the German physicist, told Hitler that the critical mass for uranium is 10,000 kilos, which is an amount impossible to obtain at that time (the true figure is only 1 kg), and thus the Germans gave up on the project. It has been speculated that Heisenberg deliberately stopped the Nazis from developing the a-bomb, but from a tv program I've watched it seems to be that he made a mistake in his method of calculation of the critical mass. I remember that later on, the allies captured a bunker where the Nazi was researching on nuclear power, and discovered that they are only trying to develop an atomic pile (or a nuclear reactor) based on the purity of the fuel (1-2% Uranium-235, the radioactive uranium for the nuclear reaction, when over 80% is needed for a bomb) and the carbon moderators.
any war that could have been avoided is a waste.
Just to correct Flashfyre5 the Spitfire is a British aircraft, the Americans (at the time the 226 was finished) were using the P-40 ( I'm not so sure about the number designation ).
As far as the political system of that time worked, war was unavoidable. I know some people think that the European nations were too soft and let Hitler get away with too much, but after the horror of world war 1 (I cannot even begin to understand it) no one was in the mood for any kind of war whatsoever.
World war 2 fascinates me in the sense that it seems like a novel unfolding before your eyes. There are countless stories of Hitler being miraculously spared, or attacks that were cancelled that ended up saving thousands, or ill-fated attack manouvres that ended up costing a side the battle. All we can hope is that we don't have to go down that road again.
yeah perhaps we could have stopped war by stopping hitler when he invaded czecheslovakia or unified with austria but it would have more than likely started ww2 earlier and we would have seen the same destruction that happend between 1939-1945 but in dates between 193x -1940 or something like that.
And lets not forget about Stalin even if Hitler had not come to power and made Germany into a super power of the time Stalin himself wanted Europe just as bad and whose to say that WW2 was gona be avoided at all perhaps the sides would have been Britain, France and few other european countries VS the Soviet union and america just fighting Japan without even stepping foot in europe. That also could have happened so in a way WW2 was not avoidable in any way shape or form
you are forgetting that the axis powers were made up of geramny, italy, and japan. it is true that hitler's attacks had a part in the two other countries but the war might have still gone on even if they killed hitler before the war started. what's done is done.
all this could of bin avoided if every 1 would of read Hitlers book .. Mein Kampf , there was all the info about what he planned to do ! just my 2cents
Hitler and his country was actually given the chance to survive after world war 1. If they were suddenly stomped into during the period when they had a small army, wouldn't it look like a situation of 'bullying' towards Germany? Would you lower yourself to being someone else down? As a whole country, you must consider. You have to decide whether you are to corrupt something not being able to resist, but then you'd take your own reputation down.
the reason why all the allied forces didnt come together to stop hitler before he had emassed an army, was because everyone was still recovering from ww1, no one wanted another war like that, so they did anything they could to avoid war with hitler,
now if things didnt happen like they did hitler may have won, ill explain if hitler wouldnt have gone back on the treaty he had with russia the uk would have been taken well before the united states could reach them, and then the u.s. would have been fighting a long range war with no land to station their troops, in conclusion there would have been almost no way for the united states to over come the nazis, and the japanese imperial army, all alone. these events would have led to the later destruction of russia, and then nazi rule through out the world.
how you going haunter long time no see ?
on the subject of ww2 i beleive even if hitler had stopped there would've been a war of somekind anyway Germany was bitter because how harsh there treaty was so they wanted revenge so ww2 was almost inevitble
P.S. Hitler is a W*nker
actually the reason why czecheslovakia fell so easily is because hitler stirred a nationalistic civil war there by using a slovak facist to break away from czecheslovakia thats why today there is a Czech republic and a slovakia separate. they still have some bad blood over the thing.
but i agree hitler could have been stopped. but its like the story line of command and conquer red alert where if you kill hitler wouldnt stalin and the soviets get strong and overtake western europe. subjective really...
i dont think it couldve been avoided as the german people had been filled with so much hate thanks to world war 1, and my opoinion like many other historians belief that if hitler had been stopped he would have been replaced with an equaly or possible more evil leader leading to war anyway.
holy shit, this thread is old. Why the resurrection? This should probably in the K University section under the European History thread.
Anyway, what is grossely overlooked mainly because of hindsight and other things of political nature is that the Western European powers, France, Britain, U.S. etc thought Hitler was a moderate and much preferred him to a Socialist government in Germany. They knew about the anti-semitism, but it's not like those societies were absent from that train of thought.