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Yaoi and Naruto: A Fandom Discussion

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki Archives' started by abfluvver, Apr 14, 2005.

Opinion on yaoi?

  1. I enjoy yaoi

    159 vote(s)
    43.7%
  2. I do not enjoy yaoi

    56 vote(s)
    15.4%
  3. I don't care about/don't mind yaoi

    68 vote(s)
    18.7%
  4. Yaoi is stupid and evil and gross and wrong, yet I like yuri

    65 vote(s)
    17.9%
  5. Other?

    16 vote(s)
    4.4%
  1. abfluvver

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    I'm not much for making first posts which are spectacularly interesting, and I'm pretty sure that the title of this thread says it all, really. So, here we have it, folks: a logical, reasonable discussion on the shounen-ai/yaoi/BL fandom-within-a-fandom, particularly pertaining to the Naruto fandom.
    Thoughts? Points of view? Death threats? Questions from those that just "don't get it"?

    I don't think I need to comment on my own stance on yaoi, since it's more or less completely apparent to most that talk with me, or even see me post. So what about the rest of NF? Do you love it, or hate it? If so, why?
    Reasonable discussions, please, as I am inclined to neg-rep and lay the smackdown on anyone on either side that starts with the flaming (because I know this can be a rather...touchy subject. Both with yaoi-haters, and yaoi-lovers).
    And please, this is about yaoi, not homosexuality. And no, they are not the same thing. All discussions about homosexuality should be taken to any one of the three threads about it in the debate corner.
     
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  2. Contaro

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    I honestly dislike the friggin' swarms of yaoi fics that exist for Naruto. There seems to be little basis for it in the manga, especially for some of the favored yaoi pairings that seem to appear in fic summaries. It's one thing if you write a fic with yaoi themes where one of the characters is actually gay, but simply introducing it randomly is extremely annoying, and that's most of what's going on.
     
  3. hahahaimbob

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    my opinion : yaoi = sick bastards.
     
  4. Blue Supporting Staff Retired Staff

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    I'm not really a fan of yaoi fics, or any sort of relationship fics in general, because they're usually poorly written and weak. Actually that's the reason I don't like all fanfiction. Some is good; most is wretched. If you actually write fanfics, assume that I think that yours in one of the good ones, kthxbai.

    Yaoi art, on the other hand, I love. Like all art. As long as it's tastefully done and well drawn. It can be cute :O

    or sexy
     
  5. ninamori

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    Yaoi in Naruto = God.

    'Cause every single freakin' girl is 'tarded and I hate them all.

    I mean, SasuNaru, there are plenty of hints, and also other things that could make evidence for this pairing. Like, Navy blue and orange. They compliment each-other. The sun and moon, this and that, blah blah blah. (Too lazy fer stuffs)

    So, I love yaoi. =P
     
  6. martryn

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    I dislike it, but as long as I'm not exposed to it on a regular basis I could care less if it existed or if people are obsessed with it, ect.

    ...I really thought I had more to say on the subject, but, yeah... that's it.
     
  7. Grave

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    Well, seems people are voting but not many are commenting on why. I'll try to, although I'm not sure I can explain this very well because it's simply an either you like it or don't type of thing.

    I voted "I enjoy Yaoi" because I can appreciate different types of art and the subject matter of art, as long as it remains tasteful. When I look at a picture of Itachi and Sasuke embracing each other I don't think "Omfg homosexual i*c*st?!" I think "Hey, that looks nice." or "Meh, don't like that one."

    In anime and manga, whether they are male or female, fans of a character are fans not only because of the character's attitude and abilities, but because they find them visually appealing. They may think they look cool, cute, sexy, it doesn't matter which but they like the way it looks. It is part of the artists job to draw characters that are pleasing to the eye. For me, this extends into the realm of yaoi as well. If I like how Itachi and Sasuke (my two favorite characters) look in the manga, why would that change just because they're holding each other? It's just a drawing. Same goes for Yuri, although that's probably the reason so many young guys are uncomfortable with Yaoi, cause they find themselves beating off to SakuraXIno and therefore see Yaoi as more than what it is.

    Now having said that, it doesn't mean I like hardcore explicit Yaoi that you can sometimes come across, like I said I like it if it is visually pleasing; and once you go so far it ceases to be something I enjoy looking at. But still it remains a personal preference I suppose.
     
  8. abfluvver

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    Yes, but why?
    The entire point of this thread is, as I made it, mature discussion concerning this topic. If you hate it, say why, please. If you like it, say why, please.
    "Sick bastards" and "hawt hawt bishies buttsexx zomg" does not a good discussion make.

    That being said, the second last option on the poll there was meant to be a joke to poke fun at the "yaoi is morally wrong, because it is two guys kissing and that's gross and immoral and you'll all burn in hell for being fags, and--OMG LOOK AT THE GIRLS MAKING OUT <333" boys out there. I can't believe people actually voted seriously for it?


    EDIT:
    *gives Grave a cookie*
    Well done.
     
  9. Twilight King

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    i selected "other"
    i dont really mind it, but i dont like it either i kinda see it as i like yuri all the same and i can see why girls would like yaoi lol. 1+2 > 2 lol. from there i suppose its up to the reader's imagination (and perversiveness, if thats a word.) just proves to me that girls are perverts (or dudes... gay or straight)
     
  10. Grave

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    So, what about when the yaoi is drawn in a style that makes the boys look very feminine? If you like yuri why wouldn't you like this then? Since it's all just art. Is it just the boobs?

    I notice alot of guys in the Mikoto FC going on and on about how pretty she is, without realizing that she has the same face structure as Sasuke. Does that mean they find him attractive too?
     
  11. abfluvver

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    Yeah, they just won't admit to it. (;
    Basis behind all the "Sasu-gay" bashing.
     
  12. mow

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    ====
    Back on topic; the yaoi in naruto (and in all mangas in general) provide for a humorous touch. And It's the only fun aspect in naruto now actually.

    I enjoy Yaoi art (greatly I must add). It can be exceptionally well drawn, lovely and appealing, as long as it doesnt become too hardcore (the same goes for yuri, I'm not trying to bash hardcore yaoi here). I enjoy it greatly as a form of art and I really dont mind having yaoi hints thrown all over the place in a manga or anime. Hence I voted
    "I enjoy yaoi"

    and abf; love your new avy XD
     
  13. Fairady

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    I adore yaoi. It's kinda hard for me to say exactly why I do. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that it's different from what is in the show, and my love of rare pairings yaoi or otherwise. I also like looking at good art or reading a good fic about a pairing and trying to figure out how that could realistically work out. Then again, it could also just be that I'm just peverted.
     
  14. abfluvver

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    Oh no you di'n't!

    Honestly, I feel the same. I would have dropped Naruto ages ago if it weren't for the fun subtext going on, and all the crack that can result.
    I wouldn't watch Naruto if it weren't for fun characters like Haku or Zabuza or Orochimaru or Kimimaro or Kabuto that just make it fun to discuss, even if it happens to be mildly annoying to watch/read at times.
     
  15. mow

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    I saw that one coming :p

    Precisly. Naruto is bleh (always been actually ever since the Zabuza arc, but I dont wish to be killed by narutards so I'll shut up now). Even Kishimoto realizes the power of the the yaoi & yuri hints Naruto contains. Otherwise, why would he mention Sasuke's and Naruto's kiss more than three times in the data book? He even used the words "passionate kiss" ( I believe you mentioned that once abf :p ). He realizes the yaoi subtext the manga contains and its effect to rally fans, therefore he keeps on adding more and more of it. Which a good thing.
     
  16. silverwings

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    I don't mind that others like Yaoi. I hate it being forced in my face, ya know, because I don't like it.

    In cases where there is strong evidence (i.e. the creator intended it to be that way (demons of darkness comes to mind)), I don't really mind. But people throwing couples together just for the sake of throwing couples together bugs me.

    Plus, where others see Yaoi subtext, I just see a bunch of guys being friends. I can see where people might get the idea for yaoi couplings in Naruto, but I really dislike it when people shove it in your face and bager you for NOT seeing it.

    Meh... it's not my cup of tea.
     
  17. mow

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    Read my last post =]. You'll see that Kishimoto throws yaoi hints on purpose.
     
  18. UltraSynaptic SeizureNinja

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    I've posted my thoughts on a previous thread, but here I go again.

    For me the enjoyment of yaoi really depends on what level it is at. Most written and fanfic yaoi is utter crap.

    The more visual types are more tasteful and I can appreciate it from an artist's point of view. As soon as it starts getting hardcore with penetration or licking or whatnot, then it becomes gross.

    Finally there is yaoi in the actual series itself. I find it more or less entertaining; aside from adding comic relief, it serves to better character development. It is also a delightful distraction from the main characters.
     
  19. silverwings

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    Heh, trust me I understand that Yaoi/shonen-ai hints are what keep a lot of girls interested in shonen series (arg, am probably generalizing, but I've always thought as Yaoi being a girl's thing and Yuri being a guy's thing...).

    Zazuba/Haku I can totally see. Hell, I'm not a fan of yaoi but I think that couple is great. :) However, I don't get Kakashi/Iruka, Shika/Chouji, Shino/Kiba, etc.. pairings that have no basis. I can see people interpreting actions between Naruto and Gaara, and Naruto and Sasuke as shonen-ai or hints towards it. I don't. But I guess it's all how you look at it. *shrugs*

    That, and it makes reading (or at least browsing) for good Naruto fanfic near impossible. (and don't get me started on PoT fanfic. ugh...)
     
  20. Spectrum

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    I feel the same way about yaoi/shounen ai (I prefer the latter, but for the purposes of this discussion they might as well be the same thing) as I do about het or yuri. A pairing is a pairing. If I think it makes sense (or if it's cute XD), I like it; if not, then I couldn't care less.

    It just so happens that SasuNaruSasu (I dislike the whole fixed seme/uke thing) is my favorite pairing in the series. I think it's the pairing with the most canonical support (like you guys said, Kishimoto drops all sorts of hints), and they're my two favorite characters, and they're cute (yeah, I did mention that was a criteria :p), so yeah. When it comes to this series, I certainly like yaoi.

    Very well said, bean. :amuse ::applause + rep::
     
  21. Piekage

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    At first I was disgusted with yaoi. But I was a troubled youth back then. Now, I'm indiferent to it. What I dislike is the swarms of yaoi fics that seem to spawn for no reason and lack any basis or reason. It's like reading a mary sue fic. To my knowledge, I have read one yaoi fic. It was a NaruSasuSaku I believe. Anyway, it was a well written story and I'll admit I enjoyed it. I was greatly freaked out a certain points but I enjoyed it over all. My point is, it's not really my thing, but I'm welling to read it. IF it's a damn good story, that is.
     
  22. serenatsukino

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    OMG!! GIVE ME MY YAOI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sick bastards? Do yourself a favor: Don't ever visit Japan.
    DOUJIN just rocks my world, and Sasu/Naru is my ALL TIME FAV. pairing (Hey, it's practically cannon anyways :smile-big )
     
  23. abfluvver

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    Yaoi =/= Mary Sues.
    While both stem from an obvious wish-fulfillment on the author's part (if we're talking fanfic here), Mary Sues are called Mary Sues because they are so unbelievably realized and excrutiatingly bad.
    I am of the opinion that a skilled writer can make practically anything work out, or give some sort of isnerted logic to it. Whether it be a crack het. pairing like NejiSaku, a crack yuri pairing like TemaTayu, or a crack yaoi pairing like KakaIru.
    Mary Sues cease to be Mary Sues if they are written in an appealing manner (then they are just OCs). Yaoi is always yaoi, no matter how bad or good it is.
     
  24. DesertLily

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    The thing that irks me about yaoi is that they take characters who are obviously straight, and then say, "omfg, look at the series, it's so obvious that he's in love with this guy, there's hints all over!"

    Naruto is straight. He's a little pervert, hence sexy no jutsu and harem no jutsu. He likes Sakura. And he's sort of turning into a little Jiraiya. Jiraiya ain't gay either.

    Kakashi is straight. He's reading dirty books that Jiraiya wrote, and let me once again remind you that Jiraiya is straight. Kakashi has never shown a single sign of being gay, ever.

    Iruka is not gay. He's the first person in the series to have fallen for sexy no jutsu. Would a GAY guy, much less one that had a crush on Kakashi, be turned on by a naked woman? Not any of the guys I know. And to those who are commenting on the fact that Iruka's always blushing when Kakashi is around...note the context. I haven't seen the whole anime, but the first time Iruka was around Kakashi, he was asking about Naruto and was merely happy to hear that he was doing well. And the second time, Kakashi pretty much humiliated Iruka in front of the group meeting with Sarutobi. You'd be blushing too if someone basically said that your opinion sucked. Not to mention the fact that Iruka didn't know much about Kakashi at all until he "read" Kakashi's record. Doesn't sound like there's some long romantic connection between the two.

    Sasuke isn't gay. He's just a prick. Well....that and the fact that he doesn't like all the Sasuke idiots. But he wants to restore his clan. How do you restore a clan with another guy? And just because Naruto is his closest friend does NOT mean he's in love with him, unless all guys that have guys as their best friends are gay. The only reason that there are signs is because of a little accident at the beginning of the series, and the fact that they are always together since they are in the same team. Although I WILL admit that I have a lot of fun saying that Sasuke wants Naruto and such, I don't think it's true, and I don't think yaoi situations are a turn-on.

    Gaara isn't gay. In fact, I think he has a fetish for boobies.

    ANYWAY! I put way too much time and thought into this. It doesn't bother me THAT much, but when obsessive fangirls get really into it, and start trying to justify all these tiny reasons that make it "obvious" the guys are gay....no. No, they aren't. I just don't like having other people's fantasies forced upon me as the truth, when it's really just theorizing and fantasizing.
     
  25. abfluvver

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    @ DesertLily.
    Most yaoi is pure asthetics, as most yuri is. KakaIru has risen prominantly as the pairing with one of the biggest bases in the Naruto fandom because the two just look hot, together. And as suzukiblue once wrote, "it's not how the interact within the series, it's how they might interact when we don't see them".

    And also, everyone seems to be conveniently side-stepping over something we call "bisexuality". And then there's people who seem to have no sexual itnerest in anyone at all, which people will stick in the "straight" category by default. Kakashi, for example. We can only assume that Icha Icha Paradise is smut. And at any rate, Kakashi has shown no sexual interest in any character at all, just interest in his book. Reading a book that we are guessing is heterosexual smut isn't "striaght" to me anymore than Kakashi taking the time to write over a near-nekkid Sasuke's crotch to seal Oro's lovebite while secluded in a back room is "gay".

    Ah hell, all characters are bisexual to me, anyways (unless -explicitly- stated otherwise). They're fictional, which means I can crack the hell out of them and pair whoever I want together in fanart.

    And why do you say yaoi is being forced upon you? I mean, unless someone physically ties you down and makes you look at buttsex all day, I fail to see how yaoi can not, in your case, be avoided if you happen to take enough issue with it that you would need to take the time to write out such a long post.

    You left the gayest characters off of your post's list, anyways ^^
     
  26. Basilimux

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    I don't mind yaoi... I guess it's ok sometimes.
     
  27. Sho

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    I agree with DesertLily. I don't have a problem with yaoi if it has basis in it (one being in mind is Haku/Zabuza which may be so, even Shizune/Tsunade. I'm not even gonna comment on Orochimaru). But taking obviously straight people, ie: Shikamaru, Sasuke, Naruto, Kakashi, Lee, Jiraiya, Chouji, etc., and saying that they're gay is unrealistic. That would have to mean that every person with a close friend, or every person with a rival, or every person who has an ambition and doesn't have time to flirt with girls or whatever, is gay.

    I don't care about the actual yaoi mangas since they have basis in truth, or the ambiguous characters in the shonen mangas, but when you're saying things like "Oh Sasuke's hatred for his brother masks a deeper feeling of attraction and lust", or "Naruto's and Sasuke's rivalry evolves into lust and love", or "Kakashi feels excited whenever he argues with Iruka and is starting to fall in love" or "Chouji and Shikamaru have been friends for a long time, they must have grown in love with each other" for straight characters, that's where it becomes Out-of-Character and they might as well be a Mary Sue since it has no basis on reality for both situations.

    Maybe I'm just not a fan of unrealistic/extremely unrealistic pairings and out-of-characterness or something. For me, it would be the equivalent of seeing Chouji get together with Kurenai. In other words, I can't see it happening, that's why I'm not into it.
     
  28. DesertLily

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    Going by what is behind the scenes of the series is, nontheless, making stuff up without valid support, which is what I'm going against. I'm just stating my opinion and supporting it with evidences (though of course I'm kidding around with it some). IMPO, I think it's kind of dumb to assume that everyone is bisexual. But that's just me.

    And my roomate is a yaoi fanatic, so if I want to eat or sleep, I kinda do. Unless you're suggesting that I shield my eyes from her wall of guys making out, which really isn't fair. Plus the fact that I'd have to avoid many websites that I enjoy, and I'd have to disable avas and sigs. Sure, nobody is holding my eyes open and making me watch gay guys make out, but that's not the only way for something to be forced upon you. If you want me to be technical or politically correct, fine. It's "unavoidable".

    And you seem to be assuming that I'm offended by it. I never said I was, although my post did seem to have an edge like that. But no, I'm not really offended so much as tired of it and think that it's dumb and overrated. Just stating an opinion.

    Haku and Zabuza = totally gay

    I didn't feel like going through everyone...just the ones that I see the most.
     
  29. Esponer

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    Okay, to be honest about this, I dislike it intensely. I'm trusting that everyone reading this topic will be mature enough not to flame/bad rep me for an opinion, so here I go...

    1. They change the characters.

    This goes for virtually all fanfiction, really. They all screw up character personalities, although at least other fanfics are trying to keep the personalities the same. Yaoi (and indeed yuri) completely ignore this. They throw people together for the very reason that it would never, ever happen and the destruction of the character personalities annoys me a lot. Sasuke and Naruto? For crying out loud, Sasuke is an avenger who couldn't care less, but he's probably straight anyway. Naruto is definitely straight, and doesn't see Sasuke in that way at all. Why do people have to butcher the series so much just to draw/write some porn?

    2. They degrade the characters.

    As far as I'm concerned, Gaara is to be empathised with due to his childhood trauma and, as a character, exists on various levels, but none of these include him getting it on with Naruto or Kankurou. These yaoi scenes degrade the character's true selves and make a mockery out of some bloody good storylines. Having seen just a few yaoi scenes, I already struggle to see those characters the way they should be seen now and I hate yaoi/yuri/etc. for it.

    3. If it's meant to be art, I just don't think it works.

    If I want to see pretty pictures, I don't want to see two naked males fondling each other. Don't get me wrong here: I don't want to see two naked females fondling each other either. If I want to see aesthetically pleasing pictures and appreciate them for their art, what I really don't want to see are penises hanging out. I don't find anything artistically beautiful about the naked male human body, or indeed the naked female human body. Somebody draw a goddamned flower.

    4. If it's meant to be sexually arousing, then no.

    Because firstly, I'm completely straight (yeah, sometimes I think it'd be more interesting if I was at least bi-curious, but I'm completely straight and I can't change that). Secondly, I'm highly unlikely to be sexually aroused by any drawings. Thirdly, the fact it's based on characters from a series like Naruto is an immediate turn-off.

    e.g. (an example with a female). Input: Tsunade? My mind replies: Tsunade is the Fifth Hokage. Input: Tsunade's breasts? My mind replies: Nope, Tsunade is the Fifth Hokage.

    Just not gonna' work!

    5. As a heterosexual male, I do suffer from the "two guys? wrong!" syndrome.

    In any sort of discussion, or when it comes to rights, I put this aside. But to be quite honest, even if I could see how one could appreciate the art behind, say, yuri, I couldn't extend that to yaoi simply because of this. I wouldn't let that bias affect me in important matters, but I wouldn't look at any yaoi even if I could appreciate the art in other couplings.
     
  30. foxStick

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    My $.02:

    I don't care for yaoi, although sometimes I think it's amusing. Yaoi within the Naruto universe I am especially not a fan of. I find it to be an extremely big stretch for most of the male Naruto characters to have sex with each other, especially those that are 12-13. If I wanted to see a masculine character have sex with a feminized character, I'd just look into standard hentai (not that I ever do that... :eyeroll ) That said, I generally know where yaoi is and I can avoid it, so for all of you who are into it, all the power to you.

    The bigger problem I have in my little corner of existence (real life) is with those that are fans of yaoi. I associate with a large number of people who are a member of the anime club at my school, a decent number of which are big yaoi fans. All of these self-declared yaoi fans, except for maybe one, have shown themselves repeatedly to be extremely shallow and unpleasant to be around. When they watch anime in club, they squeal at the slightest hint of yaoi tendencies during a show. Their obsession with "pretty boys" has extended into the real world that they will ignore many of my friends in favor of the ones who are extremely nice to look at, even if they don't get any attention back. This has caused some of my friends a great deal of irritation and discomfort.

    This is all the more annoying, since, as far I can tell, the majority of yaoi-fans on these forums seem to be reasonable people.
     
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