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Zabuza STRONGER than Kakashi... Was he a Genius?

Discussion in 'Konoha Library Archives' started by Ackwell, Oct 26, 2006.

  1. Ackwell I've talked with Kishimoto

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    I believe Kishimoto killed off a very strong character early on in the story. Not to mention the fact that he had someone with him of an Advanced bloodline (Haku), which there are not many of left in the Narutoverse.
    Although it was necessary to get Naruto off to a strong start with a strong badass to signify the strength of Kakashi early on, and to let the fans get their first intense use of the Sharingan from Kakashi, and also the first intense battle with Team 7 also, involving Haku.

    However.
    This team of 2 (Zabuza/Haku), could of destroyed Team 7 early on, and been that much closer to being great. Haku could of fulfilled his dream, and become a Shinobi.
    If Zabuza would of engadged team 7 with Haku also involved, they could of slaughtered them so early. Haku battling Sasuke/Naruto/Sakura, which he completely could of at that time. Sasuke didn't have his Sharingan activated yet, so he wouldn't be able to read Hakus movements. Especially during an ambush.
    So we ask ourselves... Why did Haku show up so late?
    Did Zabuza think so highly of himself that he could just beat Kakashi and team 7 with ease?
    If he had a great weapon like Haku, why didn't he use him initially?
    This gets very deep, but the point is, Zabuza was stronger than Kakashi, and with his weapon Haku, a timed team attack could of taken out Kakashi and company easy.

    Was Zabuza a genius?

    Perhaps. Since when he battle Kakashi one on one, he really won when he trapped him in the water prison. Kakashi said so himself.

    "This battle ended when I got trapped"

    "Run you guys"

    He admitted defeat so easily, even after he PROMISED that he wouldn't let anything happen to his teamates.
    If Haku would of been kicking the crap out of Team 7, which he could of been, Zabuza could of just used some Jutsu to kill Kakashi who was trapped. There must of been a way.

    Regardless, Zabuza was stronger with Haku,

    Than the genius Konoha ninja and his three "FUTURE SANNIN"

    Discuss
     
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  2. martryn Dick in hand

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    Disagree. Kakashi was protecting his four charges when he was caught. When he got out and the gloves came off Zabuza got owned.

    In their second match Kakashi was never in any real danger from Zabuza. Once he pinned him down and realized that his team was struggling, he got serious again and beat the shit out of him.

    Databook stats only reaffirm this.

    Haku, however, was a badass for that time period, no doubt, but he was against a trio of genins straight from the ninja academy. Think of a rescue arc Naruto versus Haku. Different story all together. I'd hardly say Haku was amazing in any regard.
     
  3. DJ-Kage Hidden Village of Sound Kage

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    Makes sense. That's why they both died.
     
  4. Sasuke` Konoha no Kiiroi SenkĊ

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    I agree with you on the most part. Except for the part about haku not being an exceptional shinobi. He could have easily killed sasuke.. remember he wasnt aiming to kill him. And as for naruto I guess he could of if sasuke didnt take the blows for him. Sakura would of been a piece of piss for haku. Haku's potential is that of sasuke's and naruto's, which is very high. If he didnt die.. he would of become very powerful.
     
  5. Ackwell I've talked with Kishimoto

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    The gloves didn't have to come off.
    Zabuza trapped Kakashi, and still played with Naruto and Sasuke.
    If Haku would of been dealing with them, and there wasn't a 4-1 Advantage, they could of disposed of Team 7 much quicker.
    Zabuza got clumsy, and paid for it.

    If Zabuza was smarter, he could of outmatched Kakashi the first time, and killed him. The problem is the longer you fight Kakashi the worse it gets, the same Jutsus don't work on him, so you'd be over once he saw all your moves.

    Still.
    At that point in time, if the Jounin used his ally and weapon Haku during the FIRST attack, it wouldn't of went to a second round.
     
  6. Shizor It's been fun, Simon.

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    I lol'd.

    exactly what I was thinking.
     
  7. Spanish Hoffkage Lol. Kisame

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    Since when was Zabuza stronger than Kakashi??
     
  8. Heldensheld Chunnin

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    It's called Plot no jutsu.
     
  9. Jay ~

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    You can't really say that Zabuza was stronger then Kakashi, yes Zabuza trapped Kakashi while he was protecting his three genin but later once Kakashi got out of the water trap who won?.
    Not only that, but also in the 2nd battle between Kakashi and Zabuza while Naruto and sasuke were fighting Haku, once Kakashi said I better get serious who won again? Kakashi.
     
  10. Haohmaru The Legendary Samurai

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    zabusa aint shit, same goes for haku. they cant even be compared to posttime skip gaara, let alone sasuke or naruto now. sasuke now would finish both of them within seconds, litterally. same goes for kakashi.

    not to mention the way kisame talks about zabusa, that kid. meaning he was probably one of the weakest 7 swordsmen there were.
     
  11. Futagokage Runaway Kage

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    Agree, they were strong, but not that strong, Zabuza could defeat Kakashi (kill Tazuna) but not defeat him, Haku was really strong and may kill both Naruto and sasuke, but I do not see him beating Gaara even pre-time skip.

    They were not weaklings, but comparing them with the Sannin is overrating their abilities.
     
  12. superflyninjaguy pimpjuice pwnage no jutsu!

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    zabuza may have been a 'genious' but that didnt matter all too much when he got his ass handed to him. and also, screw haku. ya haku was kool but was relatively weak. wow he beat a no0ob genin straight from the academy but then pissed naruto off and got his ass whooped by a slightly kyubified naruto. all that means is he was about low chunin lv. which the team...cept for sakura were already at after a few months.
     
  13. The Fourth Hokage Shinobi Perfection

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    Zabuza's technique against Kakashi was useless because all it could do was hold him. Zabuza's intention was just to complete the mission. In any case if we go with a head to head, Haku would not have been able to take team 7 together. They would've fought him from both inside and outside the Ice Mirrors. Sasuke might still have activated the Sharingan, just earlier (since he did so trying to follow Haku's movements). Also, let's not forget that Naruto had Kyuubi, that alone would've done it.

    Kakashi would've taken Zabuza just as he did anyway.
     
  14. The Truth Active Member

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    Beating a genius doesn't make the you a genius. Zabuza was strong and Haku could've been great, both are taking dirt naps right about now.
     
  15. Genesis Active Member

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    Kisame talked about Zabuza like he was a nobody. The shark man has spoken.
     
  16. HOOfan_1 Kwisatz Haderach

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    who is to say that if Haku did help Zabuza the first time that Naruto wouldn't have gotten mad enough to summon the Kyuui chakra and kick the crud out of Haku? At that time he hadn't met Haku in the woods or heard any of his story, so he may not have held back. Once he got past Haku he may have kicked the crud out of Zabuza...or at least given him enough trouble that he would have had to have released Kakashi to fight Kyuubi Naruto. Besides, how are you going to defend Zabuza's strength or "brilliance" by saying he had Haku? Zabuza was strong..and smart, but Kakashi still beat the tar out of him TWICE.
     
  17. The_Unforgiven Grazie Paolo

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    the reason that kakashi got captured was because he was protecting 3 wet behind the ear genins and a useless old man. I do admit that Zabuza was strong, even kakashi said " if he is who i think he is, then i cant win like this" and uses the sharingan. But as soon as kakashi got serious, he sent zabuza straight to hell.
     
  18. Edgecrusher Nigu's buffer of butter

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    Don't forget. Zabuza thought he could take out the Mizukage. I guess you could say he's a genius, but he's a little messed up in the head.

    What doesn't make sense it how Zabuza hyped him as saying Haku never lost to anyone. But make no mistake, Sasuke wasn't quite a noob anymore. I mean, sure he just walked up trees, but somehow that made a difference. Also Zabuza and Kakashi were quite shocked at the bit of Kyuubi chakra that poured out (not to say he was even barely in their class, but at least it made them take note).
     
  19. Halcyon Days Kazekage Lee

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    He's right Zabuza was stronger than kakashi. Zabuza had kakashi killed after he figured out his sharingan. kakashi may have lied and sdi that he let himcut him,but he lied. Instead of cutting him he could've water cloned himself and stabbed zabuza when he cut the clone and finished him off their. Zabuza had kakshi outwitted, and he would've died without those dogs. What if he would've just done another water vortex jutsu in teh mist kakashi, naruto, sakura, and sasuke would've been swept away and killed.
     
  20. AkiraYuki New Member

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    People assume that Kisame didnt respect Zabuza at all, but the fact that he mentioned Zabuza to Kakashi ( how the hell did he find out anyway?!), tells me otherwise.

    I mean Kakashi is not in the Mist Bingo Book for nothing, he has probably killed dozens of noteworthy Mist ninjas, yet Kisame only mentioned, ur the one that killed that Zabuza kid...

    Akira
     
  21. Scyffe New Member

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    Zabuza would never been able to beat Kakashi, its just as simple as that.

    Kakashi won the first match, and in the second match he outsmarted Zabuza in the MIST, where he had a huuge advantage.
    And after Haku was killed, and Zabuza tried to slash at his body, Kakashi got mad and totally owned him without breaking a sweat... and at that time Kakashi said himself that he wasnt as strong a before.

    If Haku actually had joined the fight, Kakashi would kill him before he could even lay a finger at his Genin friends... belive it
     
  22. Kinjishi Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, at the time of his death, Zabuza = Kakashi. Zabuza was considered one of the top seven shinobi of his village, which to me indicates he is on par with Konoha's elite jonin(Kakashi,Gai,Asuma,Kurenai). This however can only be true if it remains consistent with time. Zabuza in my mind was a genius, considering he was able to single handedly slaughter all of the students in his village's ninja academy. What perplexes me is how he even became a jonin,member of Anbu and the respected seven swordsmen after that massacre. The village must have feared him. Zabuza was capable of beating Kakashi and Team 7, yet he ultimately fell victim to his own arrogance and ambition. Why arent there any Zabuza Smilies?

    I agree. I think Zabuza and Kisame may even have had a respectable relationship. Considering they fought together side by side and were considered the top shinobi of their village, the seven swordsmen may have been like brothers. Kisame seemed pretty pissed when Kakashi indicated that he killed Zabuza. Although Kisame could have just taken it as a sign of disrespect from Kakashi. But I still believe Kisame respected Zabuza and vice versa. I wonder at what point in time and how did the swordsmen have their falling out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2006
  23. The Truth Active Member

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    Zabuza could have beaten Kakashi when they first fought even if Team 7 hadn't been there. However fighting a sharingan user twice and winning is next to impossible. That is why Kakashi said that no one had ever seen his sharingan twice. The second time around, Zabuza's jutsus were copied and analyzed making victory impossible. There is a reason Kabuto didn't want to fight Kakashi, he was smart enough to know(unlike Zabuza) that he'd have to finish the job.
     
  24. The_Leader Nope, not here!

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    Remember that one of Zabuza's biggest assets was his stealth and use of surprise.

    For anyone lower than a elite jounin or a Hyuuga, he would have been absolutely and totally lethal. He's not weak.

    It's just that Kakashi was better, and used his resources better.
     
  25. Razarael Weep.

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    The only reason Zabuza lost at either battle was because of his cockiness. If Zabuza immediately stabbed Kakashi as soon as he trapped him in the water prison the fight would have been over right then and there. Kakashi fell right into his trap and had absolutely no way to escape, and at that point Kakashi was already using the Sharingan. Had he simply killed him there, it would have been game over for the rest of team 7.

    In the battle at the bridge, the same thing happened. He already figured out how to get past the sharingan. Mist concealment + closing his eyes. Creating absolutely zero visability for everyone, including himself, and still being able to fight shows amazing talent. He lost for the exact same reason he lost the first time - he got cocky. He wanted to see what Kakashi was going to do. He let him perform the summon because he was curious. If he went all out then, Zabuza would have destroyed him.

    Zabuza lost because of a classic villain flaw - cockiness.

    Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura should have died right then, and the series should have been renamed Zabuza and Haku. I would have been happy.
     
  26. MKashew Huh?

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    In the second fight Kakashi proved dominance in that he was going to end the fight. And he would of if Haku didn't shield Zabuza. Even then Kakashi was wooping Zabuza after killing Haku. No contest. Kakashi beat him twice and maybe 3 if you count them fighting after Haku's shielding.

    Man you guys are like sore... losers? Haha stop making excuses.
     
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