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Zabuza underrated?

Discussion in 'House of Uzumaki Archives' started by Code, Jun 25, 2005.

Zabuza's Relative Strength To Kakashi (Pre-Chuunin)

  1. A lot weaker than Kakashi

    11 vote(s)
    13.1%
  2. Slightly weaker than Kakashi

    43 vote(s)
    51.2%
  3. Even with Kakashi

    25 vote(s)
    29.8%
  4. Slightly stronger than Kakashi

    3 vote(s)
    3.6%
  5. A lot stronger than Kakashi

    2 vote(s)
    2.4%
  1. Code

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    Whenever I come across a comment about Zabuza's strength it's that he's a weak Jounin if not weak that he's a lot weaker than Kakashi. Well I personally believe both to be untrue. I'd actually go as far as to put him about on the same level as him or just a bit weaker.

    If not for the help that Kakashi received from the rest of the team, Kakashi would've been killed by Zabuza.

    In the first few moves of the fight, was basically trade offs and such. Kakashi immediately activates his sharingan upon Zabuza's arrival saying that he cannot beat him without it. Then they begin their fight.

    Both of them seemed equally matched in speed but Zabuza overcame Kakashi more than twice and Kakashi only hit Zabuza' mizu bunshin clone once. Then Kakashi mizu bunshins behind Zabuza and leads to this.







    As you see, Zabuza was able to easily outmaneuver Kakashi and could've killed him right then and there if not for the fact that he went off to finish Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, and Tazuna. If you do not believe so then then enext image.



    Kakashi even admitted defeat.



    Not once in the first battle did Kakashi overcome Zabuza aside from the mizu bunshin trade off after Zabuza was able to pass Kakashi without his notice. Then afterwards Zabuza was able to handle Kakashi who had no inihibitions and trap him in the prison. Zabuza Could've finished Kakashi right there defeating "Copy Ninja Kakashi" who did not hold back once during the fight.

    Not until after he wasted many mizu bunshins on the rest of team 7 was Kakashi able to finally get out with team 7's help. They had subsequent trade offs and they were easily matched in speed and strength(this is after Zabuza used jutsus therefore wasting chakra on "outside interference" before he was able to handle Kakashi). Not until Kakashi used his intelligence and and phscologically beat Zabuza was he able to finally pull off a jutsu to defeat him. Though that trick as figured out by Zabuza later on so it wouldn't work twice.

    The 2nd match, Zabuza simply put up the mist and was playing around with Kakashi till he was caught off gaurd by Kakashi's dog summonig and chidori, he was once again outsmarted due to his overconfidence and in a trick that will not work on Zabuza again. But all these could've been avoided and Kakashi dead if he had wanted to finish him off in the first fight.

    Despite the fact that Kishimoto obviously displayed their abilites as matched (Zabuza superior in the first scuffle, Kakashi in the last), people seem to assume Zabuza was "pwned" when Zabuza was the one doing the owning (look at the images above) first.

    I do believe that Zabuza is greatly underrated. And that he isn't far below in skills of Kakashi. Though in terms of strategy he does pale a lot in comparism to Kakashi but not in others skills.
     
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  2. Nighthawk

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    In defense of Zabuza? sigh. Just analyze their fights and you'll see that an out-of-shape weak Kakashi totally pwned him. First off with one simple (copy) water blast, then the second time with his dogs who are just used for scouting when Kakashi is dealing with real enemies. Also,the fact that he got killed by village people makes him look pretty weak for an s-rank criminal, don't ya think?
     
  3. martryn

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    I would say that Zabuza isn't a lot weaker than Kakashi, but weak enough to not really prove too much of a threat. Zabuza had the landscape advantage in both fights and still lost pretty big time. When Kakashi got serious Zabuza was pwned in seconds.

    Not that Zabuza is weak, but I don't think many people give Kakashi the kind of credit he deserves.
     
  4. Code

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    *sigh...

    First actually pay attention to the fight. Out-of-shape weak Kakashi? Hmm... Suure.

    First off, one "simple" water blast? I'm sorry but you didn't pay attention to waht I actually said. 2nd time, that was only thing he had that could defeat Zabuza. He himsel fsaid he was completely serious and that Zabuza should stop playing around even though it's not his style.

    I'd write that off as nothing even paying attention to anything but twisting things in favor of Kakashi. Only somehow twisting things and omitting the fact htat Kakashi was "pwned" was you say Kakashi did to Zabuza and was saved. 2nd fight, he had to pull of an A-rank jutsu, it wasn't simple, that alone should make me ignore your post, that was after phsycologically beating him. I already covered the 2nd fight.

    Yet, did any of those show aside from planning that Kakashi bested Zabuza by overpowering him? Even with his superior intelligence(which I agree will allow him to win against Zabuza) he lost their first round and was only allowed to live to beat Zabuza due to help.
     
  5. The Sandwich Prince

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    Well, first off... it can be assumed that Kakashi let himself be knocked into the water (Although the translation is iffy, it seems more concencrete in the anime) from Zabuza's observations as well as Kakashi's commentary, but even ignoring that only a week passed with both considerably injured from the first fight. Personally I don't think it's right to say Kakashi wasn't holding back.. rather he was testing his opponent's initial strategy in itself and didn't think that a missing-nin from Mist could alter the water's density. Had he been able to hide in the water and devise another plan I'm sure things would've looked different.

    In the second fight Zabuza has the preemptive strike and to my knowledge I don't remember anything exactly life-threatening happening to Kakashi, but I could be terribly wrong (I'll review after posting). I really don't see the "You're future is death" thing being a trick.. rather strategy to psyche out his opponent and ruin his concentration to diminish his fighting ability.

    Although I do agree that Zabuza is underrated, both had critical opportunities to finish each other off had it not be a done that was to promote the story. I do think Kakashi was holding back though.

    Edit: And just because Kakashi used Raikiri doesn't mean that's all he had available. It was just a flashy finish. He could've really impaled him with a kunai or something.
     
  6. Code

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    That cannot be assumed. No commentary even indicated at that. But look at the image of Kakashi admitting defeat and he even said "this is bad..." while he was in the prison and Zabuza created the mizu bunshins.

    He was testing his power to allow the others to die? Again you are assuming things with no basis whatsoever and goes against Kakashi's reactions and "thoughts' while trapped and the fact he showed no indication of holding back. But no, it was not in his ability to hide in the water and devise a plan. Kakashi has not shown anything indicating overpowering Zabuza or being more skillful. If you're rerring to what happend later and in the 2nd fight. You will notice if you payed attention that the only advantage he had was created from outsmarting him not being "stronger" than him.

    Hmm... I agree with the "you're future is death" ...
     
  7. Nighthawk

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    Yes, suuure indeed. In case you didn't notice...the "real" Kakashi isn't half-dead for a week after using the sharingan for 5 minutes.
     
  8. Code

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    ...

    ...

    I do not get what you mean. During the fight against Zabuza, Zabuza put him in that shape, not just his sharingan use...
     
  9. martryn

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    He said this is bad not because he thought he was going to die, but because he thought the rest of team 7 were going to die.
     
  10. Code

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    Would he test Zabuza while he was that worried for his team?
     
  11. The Sandwich Prince

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    The only thing I hate about theories/discussions based on things that happened in stories is that the plot device can't really be taken in account accurately. I wish it were as simple as "If Kakashi beat Zabuza then Kakashi > Zabuza," but that's not always the case. Too many variables and unspoken things..

    The short answer though.. if Kakashi was as cocky as he seemed at first, yes.
     
  12. Code

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    Well I simply believe that Zabuza was underrated.

    That Kakashi is not far above him as people seem to think. I'd put him at most on equal grounds maybe a bit weaker but he'd probably lose the majority of times against Kakashi due to Kakashi's superior intelligence.
     
  13. Nighthawk

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    Yeah I forgot. Not to mention that without Kakashi's weakness (team 7/tazuna) forcing him to create openings all the time, Zabuza would have been nothing in front of Kakashi. Zabuza was jounin level, alright? But Kakashi is elite jounin, so live with that and don't yell "in defense of zabuza...there he trapped kakashi, wow what a guy."
     
  14. Code

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    ...

    The first time team 7 and tazuna were of no hinderance. The only time he had to worry about them at all was when the mist was put up. And without them, Kakashi would've died.

    Live with the fact that that's just another excuse. Kakashi made no comment about being hindered. The only time that he may have been hindered was when Zabuza was playing around after putting up the extremely thick mist. Unless you assume things that Kishimoto did't display earlier times but yet he did later on.
     
  15. Kira Yamato Retired Staff

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    I don't believe Zabuza was underrated. Kakashi had essentially dominated their fight when he got serious. Haku was his trumph card and knew that he had a bigger upside than himself.
     
  16. Vael

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    I agree with Code... Zabuza is underrated. I voted that he was slightly weaker than Kakashi, but it could have gone either way.
     
  17. Invisus

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    In the first fight Kakashi had to protect Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke and he hadn't been in a situation like that in a long time since as we were told earlier, every genin group he has had never passed his test. So presumably they were the first group he had ever taken with him, not only that but at the begining of the arc he was going to go back to Konoha when he found out that Tazuna had lied. I imagine he didn't expect he would have to protect everyone from a Jounin.

    Although I personally think the wave arc is bizzare, since Kakashi and Zabuza seemed relatively even in the first fight while in the second one he completely destorys Zabuza with little effort.
     
  18. ZeonNoMamono

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    He woulda died without his team (Kakashi). Zabuza owned him. He wouldn't have lived to fight (and win) the second round.
     
  19. lekki

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    I agree with Code, if his team wasn't there, he would've died the first time. There was no hinderance during the actual exchange of blows. Sharingan was lucky Obito kicked the bucket and gave him that sharingan otherwise maybe he would be in the same place Obito is right now.

    And about the second fight, there was no easy pwning either. And if I recall, Kakashi didn't even have the strength to fight the thugs that the one dude hired to kill off Zabuza abd Haku yet Zabuza then went in with no arms and a Kunai in his mouth to take out about half of them and then kill the businessman.

    I remember a bleeding, cut-up Kakashi from the scond fight in which he "pwned"

    Zabuza was a great jounin, it wouldn't kill you to admit it.
     
  20. Oujisama

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    Zabuza was an extremely powerful nin, i mean cmon, he was an S class missing nin and one of the 7 mist swordsmen, that probably puts him on par with kisame. Kakashi had a really hard time with him, hes really strong. But he was in the beginning, so not many people consider him one of the "cheap ass too strong" guys.
     
  21. babbitblob

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    zabuza was considered a baby to kisame.

    "i heard you fought little zabuza"-kisame

    and zabuza's bingo book rank was never revealed.
     
  22. ayiarij

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    but kakashi has his sharingan so we have to count it in e combat.
    i agree with code.
    Zabuza is underrated.i feel he is about the same standard as kakashi. maybe slightly weaker since he lost to kakashi.

    ojisama: it has always been like this. when you are protecting someone or when you are angry when "that precious someone" is hurt or killed, you get extremely strong.. but that scene was really touching.. i remember myself crying over it. =S
     
  23. Code

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    I think a lot of Konoha jounins can be consider a baby to Kisame...
     
  24. Ram

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    Kakashi had the edge over Zabuza in the end.

    The sharingan was just too much for Zabuza the first time, and his strategy was wrong. He was performing seals in plain sight of Kakashi, a mistake.
    The second time he modified his strats, but I think Kakashi still edged it out and outclassed Zabuza.

    So, I'd say close, but Kakashi was slightly better both times.
     
  25. Sariachan

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    Zabuza was stronger than Kakashi, but had less ninjutsu knowledge. ;)
     
  26. DeadBoy

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    Zabuza.was.an.ANBU.captain.and.one.of.the.special.seven.swordsmen.of.the.hidden.
    mist.//He's.not.weak.
     
  27. Bro Tai Jr.

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    Yeah but Kakashi was also an ANBU Member.
    I would say about the same with Kakashi.
     
  28. C.

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    Actually if you remeber correctly Zabuza made water clones while hiding in the mist but kakashi copyed them...So Zabuza knew that the mist couldn't hide himself from kakashi's sharingan.

    The first time Zabuza faught Kakashi he wasn't planning on winning, my reasons for this is why would he have Haku watch the fight and figure out a stratagy to overcome the sharingan? I am sure Zabuza would have finished it if he could have but he knew he was up against one of the best ninja's in kohona.

    In the second fight Zabuza was relying too much on haku to take out team 7 and he figured he could toy with kakashi and take him out last. He didn't fully realize that Haku couldn't kill team 7 because of his mental state. When Haku took the hit for zabuza and died, I think this pushed Zabuza over the edge. Kakashi decided to go all out and Zabuza was blinded by mixed emotions for Haku (He couldn't believe he actually cared for him, and was trying to deny it to himself i think) Against kakashi's all out attack and Zabuza's suddenly sluggish and unfocused fighting style Kakashi destoyed him.

    So with the reasons stated above I would put Zabuza as equal to Kakashi. Both are elite ninja's from their respective country's. Zabuza didn't know how to deal with a sharingan and relied too much on Haku, that was his downfall.
     
  29. sharinganZippy19

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    I think Zabuza is slightly weaker. In a mental state of mind, he thinks hes all that and physically/with jutsu he is pretty good, but the first time, he let Kakashi get in his head. Kakashi actually gives a fight his best effort. Zabuza is strong, but Kakashi is just a stronger and better person.
     
  30. Jaculus

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    Zabuza did not really impress me, his techniques weren't much of a big deal. I'd say, leave him at his place on the Naruto reputation list.
     
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